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SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER 09 :
Good afternoon, and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon, taking your calls. If you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith, I’m looking at a fairly open switchboard. We have a few calls, but we have quite a few open lines, which makes this an excellent time for you to call in if you want to get in today, because it’s not always the case that we have this many lines open, and they will fill up. The number to call is 844- 844-5737. If you’d like to ask a question about the Bible or the Christian faith, or you want to present an alternative viewpoint to something that you’ve heard this host say, feel free to call this number. 844-484-5737. And as I’ve been saying all week, I’ve been teaching this week in various places in Tennessee. Tonight I’m speaking in Church Hill, Tennessee. And you can get information if you happen to be in northeastern Tennessee. You can get information at our website about that location and time, which actually is going to be shortly after the program goes off the air today, so it’s soon. And then on Sunday night I’ll be speaking on the Four Views of Revelation at a Calvary Chapel in Talbot near Jefferson City. And that will be the last of my speaking here in Tennessee this trip, and I’ll be heading home after that. So that’s tonight in Churchill and Sunday night near Jefferson City, a little town called Talbot. And so now I’ve got that off my chest. Let’s go and talk to our listeners. Chris from Vancouver, British Columbia. Welcome.
SPEAKER 08 :
You can hear me all right?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I can barely hear you. There’s lots of background noise. Are you driving?
SPEAKER 05 :
Yes, I am. I’ll take my answer off the air if you can hear me enough to get my question out.
SPEAKER 13 :
Go ahead. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay. So, first of all, I’m very thankful for your show, and I hope that it’s evident even through my comments that I have. It’s sort of a disagreement on a few of the comments when I’ve phoned in the past about… my marriage to a non-Christian.
SPEAKER 13 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 05 :
And one of the first ones being that on the first call you said that, you know, I had sort of, I made that mistake, but I, you know, my duty now is to honor that commitment. And that, calling it a mistake I think is a bit of a, I didn’t really appreciate that part of it, not knowing exactly where you’re coming from with that, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you were, you know, intending to hurt my feelings or anything like that.
SPEAKER 09 :
Let me just stick this in before you go further. Let me just say, I believe it’s always a mistake when we do what the Bible tells us not to do. Okay? That’s a mistake. We should always do what the Bible teaches, and when we don’t, we’re making a mistake. That’s why I called it a mistake. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay, so I guess my next point, or the next point that I didn’t necessarily agree with was when He sort of inferred that anybody who was to marry a non-believer would not necessarily have any zeal for the Lord. And I think, again, that is sort of, you know, was your own opinion, not truly knowing my communication with the Lord in making a choice to marry a non-believer. I know I’m Christian.
SPEAKER 09 :
So you’re saying you’re calling to express offense over my remarks, and you’re welcome to take offense. I will say this. You and I might have different opinions about what it means to be zealous for the Lord. To me, a person who’s zealous for the Lord is just consumed with concerns of the kingdom of God. And when you look for a spouse, especially someone to raise your children with, to live your life with, you look for someone who has your same values. Now, if a person, I mean, I’m not just speaking about you. I’m just speaking in general. If a person has that kind of passion for God, then they would choose a spouse that has that kind of passion for God because they wouldn’t want to take the risk. of their children being raised with different values. If you want to pursue God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and you want to be bound together with somebody who doesn’t have that interest, that’s, I think, a very poor decision. And I’m not really sure why a person who has that kind of zeal for God would want to live with somebody who doesn’t. Now, I’m not trying to pick on you. I don’t have anything against you. I said I think it was a mistake to marry an un-Christian, but if you made a mistake some time ago, I’ve made mistakes too, not that particular kind, but I’ve made lots of them. So no reason to be offended, though. I said when you do something that the Bible says not to do, that that’s a mistake, and that it seems to me, especially in the area of choosing a life partner, and somebody to raise your children, if Jesus is everything to you, then you won’t have very much in common with someone that Jesus is nothing to. Now, it may well be that you care about Jesus. I’m not denying that. I’m just trying to describe what I consider to be the normal Christian life is I deny myself, take up my cross, and follow Jesus to the death. And I want everyone under my influence to do the same thing. And I would certainly want my children to be able to do that. So that’s what I’m saying. I don’t know why a person with those goals, I don’t think they would marry somebody like that. But if I’m saying when you got married, you didn’t have those goals to the degree I’m talking about, okay. I mean, you’re certainly welcome to say I’m entitled to have whatever goals I have. And, Steve, it doesn’t really matter whether you agree with them or not. So, I mean, I can’t help saying what I believe is true. And if you believe something else is true, you certainly don’t have to agree with me. That’s the nature of disagreement about things. Hello? Yeah.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hi. Do you mind if I say one more thing?
SPEAKER 09 :
One more. Go ahead. We’ve got lines full now.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay. So, yeah, I agree. We see that differently. My response would be Paul’s instructions on Christian marriage also go into – quite detailed about how living a single life would be the best way to have zeal for the Lord. So if you believe that it’s a mistake because of Scripture for me to marry a non-believer, would you not say that it would be a mistake for someone to get married and have children? Because Paul speaks quite plainly about how that takes away the day-to-day happenings of a marriage and raising children take away from the zeal of the Lord.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, let me jump in. I’ll answer that question for you. Paul does not say that the most zealous thing to do as a Christian is to stay single. He expresses when people are asking him whether he should be single or whether they should stay single or get married, he’s saying, well, if you stay single, you’ll remain, you know, undistracted from serving God if that’s your gift. But he says, I say that by permission because actually not everyone has the same gift. He’s saying some people have the gift of singleness and some have the gift of being married. Both of them are equal gifts, he says. Now, he doesn’t say, and marrying a Christian is an equal, separate gift from marrying a non-Christian. That’s not comparable. Paul indicates that whoever marries can serve God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength and raise godly families. Certainly, that’s part of what God wants people to do. He’s saying some people, like himself, are able to stay single. And he said those who can, well, more power to you. You can stay single. undistracted from serving God. But you know, not everybody’s called to do what Paul did. Not everybody’s called to travel the world all the time. Some are called to do that. Some are not. The ones who are called to raise families, the best way they can be zealous for God is to raise families. So there’s different gifts, Paul said. But he doesn’t mention marrying non-believers as a separate gift to the Holy Spirit as he does marriage and singleness. So it’s not really comparable. But, again, I’m not trying to condemn you. If I hurt your feelings and you’re trying to condemn me to get back at me, that’s okay. I mean, I understand people doing that. But it’s not called for only because I’m not trying to pick on you. I’m trying to answer questions biblically. I’m not trying to, you know, if you go to some counselors, I guess they think, or maybe you think, they’re supposed to just comfort you and make you feel good about everything we’re doing. I’m just interested in telling you what the Bible says. That’s what I do. And I think the Bible says everything I did. I mean, think of it this way. Suppose you’re a single man looking for a wife. And you’re very devoted to your parents. And you want to help your parents on the farm or whatever until they die. And, you know, you’re really making that a priority in your life. And you find a woman who hates your parents, a woman who doesn’t want you to do anything for your parents. a woman who wants to stay away from your parents. Well, I’d say that wouldn’t be a very good choice of a mate if you’re really devoted to your parents in the degree that I just talked about. If the thing that is really your highest priority is not even on the list of priorities for the person you’re courting, then most people would look for someone who has more in common with them. But I’m not… I mean, listen, I don’t know how to say that without making you feel condemned. I’m not trying to make you feel condemned. I’m just saying… I don’t know what a person who’s on fire for Christ with all their heart, soul, and mind and strength would see as a reason to marry someone who doesn’t know Jesus. But if Jesus is just one of the things in your life and other things are more important, then I can see how people might make such a decision. I don’t see two kinds of Christianity. I see one kind where you’re sold out to Jesus. Paul says, whatever you do in word and deed, you do it to the glory of God. You do it in the name of Jesus. And I just don’t know of any non-Christian living with a Christian who would like to have those be what their spouse is doing all the time, just serving God and doing the will of God. But, okay, go with my blessing. I’m not trying to condemn you. Paul didn’t condemn people who were married to non-believers. He just said, be faithful in the marriage. And that would be my word to you. It’s interesting to me that you’ve called three times about the same thing. I’ve done nothing except tell you what the Bible says, and you feel like you have to call back and just say, I was offended by this. Okay, you and I don’t have a quarrel, I hope. So go in peace, and I don’t really know that we need to argue about this. It seems to me maybe you’re feeling a little convicted, and you’re not going to let it go. Okay, let’s talk to Patty from Carmichael, California. Patty, welcome.
SPEAKER 03 :
Good afternoon, Steve. Thank you for your time. Deuteronomy 27.16 says, Cursed be he that setteth light by his father or his mother. What does that mean?
SPEAKER 09 :
Setteth light is an old King James expression that means takes them lightly or does not honor them.
SPEAKER 03 :
Ah.
SPEAKER 09 :
I know in modern English, seteth light might sound like you set a candle by them or set a lamp by them. Don’t set a lamp by your parents. That’s just an old King James expression. Cursed is anyone who essentially despises or treats with disrespect their father or mother.
SPEAKER 03 :
How do you spell Temecula? I want to send some money, but I don’t know how to spell it.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. Well, it’s T-E-M-E-C-U-L-A.
SPEAKER 03 :
Great. Thank you so much. I appreciate your time. God bless you. Thanks, Betty.
SPEAKER 09 :
Great hearing from you. God bless you. All right. We’re going to talk to Rashad from Brooklyn, New York, one of New York’s finest policemen. He’s been calling me for 15 years maybe. I’m not sure. And by the way, we have a couple lines have opened up. The number is 844-484-5737. Rashad, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hi, Steve. Yeah, you know, I think it has been around 15 years. But, yeah, so today I just wanted to touch on two things. It was a call a few weeks ago, and I believe the person was asking about if somebody dies as a baby. Will they, when they, you know, upon Christ’s return with glorified bodies, would that baby, you know, would that person still be a baby? And just my thought, I don’t know if I could be in the wrong. because the Bible doesn’t really say anything directly about it. But in my personal opinion, I think it would make sense that everyone who passed away at a young age or even an old age would be resurrected in a glorified body and be a prime. What do you think about that?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, again, we’re not told about that, but that’s the answer I usually give, yeah.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. Okay. Okay. And then the second question or comment was about, you know, people have been calling a lot about marriage and divorce. And I’ve always thought as far as when it comes to divorce, you know, I know the Bible says, you know, divorce only for, as far as Christians are concerned, only for infidelity. But… you know, and you touched on it, I think it was earlier this week, or maybe it was last week, where, you know, you said that, you know, with church discipline, You know, if they, in the end, the person still isn’t listening as far as, say, if somebody was abusing their spouse or things like that, that they would be treated as a heathen. And that has always been my thought pattern because I always thought about it where people just always seem to be so strict and straightforward and say only for divorce. And then sometimes when the topic comes up and people say, you know, the type of company say, well, what if the person, you know, what if the husband is abusing the wife or molesting the children or attempted to murder the wife or, you know, the other way around, the wife attempted to murder the husband. In my opinion, that person would be acting as not a Christian. I agree. I agree, and I usually say that, too.
SPEAKER 09 :
So do you have a question, though, Rashad?
SPEAKER 07 :
No, no, that was it. I just wanted to make those comments.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. Yeah, well, both of those things are things I say, too. So I appreciate you, brother. Thanks for your service. All right. Thank you.
SPEAKER 07 :
God bless you.
SPEAKER 09 :
Bye-bye. Okay. Maria from Vancouver, B.C. Welcome.
SPEAKER 11 :
Hello.
SPEAKER 09 :
Hi.
SPEAKER 11 :
Yes, good afternoon, Steve. Yes, I just want to ask a question. I’m doing some Bible studies, and I heard some books from – William Barclay, do you recommend his Bible studies? His daily study Bible?
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 11 :
Yeah, because I like his stuff, right?
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 11 :
I remember when I was searching on the Wikipedia, it says he’s a universalist. So I have some, you know, question whether I should really, really follow his thinking or teaching. Is he a Christian? What do you think? Thank you.
SPEAKER 09 :
I hear you. Yes. Uh-huh. Well, William Barclay was, in fact, a Christian universalist, but he was a Christian. There’s many Christians who are Christian universalists. There are many universalists who are not Christians, obviously. There’s Unitarianism and some of these rather cultic heresies that are also universalists. And by that, I think their views would be, it’s not necessary to know Christ to be saved. I think Unitarian views would suggest you could be saved with or without Christ because he’s not the only way. A Christian universalist would say, no, you can’t be saved without Christ. But they would say, we don’t know that a person loses their opportunity to accept Christ after they die. So they would say, a person will never be saved without embracing Christ as Lord. But some people who die without having done so may yet do so later, in hell even. If they’re in hell, they might even do so. Now, a lot of liberal Christians do take that view, but you don’t have to be a liberal Christian to hold it. There are conservative evangelicals who hold that view, and it was one of the major views of the early church. That was never considered a heresy until the time of, Well, like the 6th century or something, it was declared a heresy because the popes didn’t like it. But many, many Christians, many church fathers held to that view. Some of the most orthodox church fathers held that view. There were different views of hell, and universal reconciliation, as we call it, was one of those, or we could call it restorationism, that all will be restored. was one of the views that was held by leading church fathers, and those who did not hold it did not refer to it as a heresy. There were people who held other views, but no one saw that as a heresy in the first four centuries of the church. Since that time, of course, evangelicalism has come out of Protestantism, and Protestantism came out of Roman Catholicism. And Roman Catholicism had adopted Augustine’s views, which are that hell is a place of eternal conscious torment. Now, there were Christians who believed that, too, before Augustine. Like I said, there were different views on hell before the time of Augustine, including those like Tertullian, who held to the view of eternal conscious torment, which we usually call that the traditional view of hell now among evangelicals. That became the view of the Roman Catholic Church. And then the Reformation was a branch of the Roman Catholic Church, part of the Western Church. And then modern evangelicals have grown out of the Protestant Reformation. So the doctrine of eternal conscious torment has become sort of a traditional view of Western Christianity in general, which include us who are evangelicals. But there were others in the Eastern Church, the Church of the East. Many of their church fathers believed in a form of eventual conversion. salvation of everybody. They didn’t believe people would be saved without Christ. They believed that people would turn to Christ, even after death in many cases. And whether that’s true or not, we can argue. I mean, there’s arguments for and against it. There were also people who believed a different view than either of those. There were people like Irenaeus, who had been the disciple of Polycarp, who had been a disciple of John himself. Irenaeus believed in what we call conditional immortality, or we might call it annihilationism, that the person who is in hell does not live forever in torment, and they’re not restored, but they’re simply annihilated. So these are three different views of hell. I actually wrote a book about the three views of hell. I do not advocate any of the views, because I believe there’s sufficient scriptural support for more than one view that we just have to say, well, I guess we’ll find out someday, because You can support all three of those views from Scripture, and that’s why those views still exist among Christians today. So Barclay was a universalist. He was also, I mean, frankly, Barclay was not what I would call a conservative. He was an evangelical in the sense that he loved the Lord. He loved the gospel. He preached the gospel. He was a great scholar. His multi-volume daily Bible study, what’s it called, Daily Bible Study, is it called? It’s books on all the books of the New Testament. He wrote very insightful and profound insights. He accessed rabbinic writings to give sort of background ideas about what the Pharisees believed. He had a lot of scholarship, and he writes in a way that’s very easy to understand. I mean, the average reader usually finds him enjoyable to read. But When you read any commentator, whether it’s him or someone else, or even if you read me, you have to realize that these are human beings who have done their best to reach their own understanding of certain things in Scripture which might be seen differently by other people. So no matter what commentator you read, you never can be absolved of your responsibility to think for yourself, to pray. Ask God to show you, seek the Holy Spirit’s guidance, and study as diligently as is necessary, and then reach conclusions. And if you reach conclusions about certain things differently from those even of the commentators you read, and I’ve had that experience many times, I’ve been reading commentaries I disagree with, and yet I like those commentaries. I learn a lot from them. Then, you know, it’s okay. They have the right to see these things differently, and there’s nothing in the Bible that says they can’t. So I wouldn’t certainly condemn William Barclay at all. He was a little more liberal, I would say, than I am, maybe a lot more. But he loved the Lord, and his insights are often very good. So I wouldn’t tell you to take all your Barclay commentaries and throw them out. I’d say you can still get a great deal out of them. He was a little squishy on the miracles of Jesus. He sometimes seems to have thought that the miracles were maybe, described as miracles in the Bible, but he’s one of those teachers who thought in some cases you could explain naturally what happened and that it was taken to be a miracle. I disagree with him on that. I disagree with him on a number of things. But I have used his works, and there certainly is a lot of value in them. So with William Barclay and any commentator, any teacher on the radio, myself, anyone else, anyone who publishes books, you can read them and, like Paul said, test all things. Paul said prove all things in 1 Thessalonians 5. Prove all things and hold fast to what is good. But that means you hear everything and you test it. You test it to see if it seems to line up with Scripture. Now, you don’t reject it if it simply disagrees with what you already thought, because you might have been wrong and the person you’re listening to might be right. Or they might be right and you may be wrong. I’m sorry, they may be wrong and you may be right. So you don’t go into listening to it with the assumption that you know everything or that the person you’re listening to knows everything. But you’re gathering information and you search the scriptures like the Bereans to see if this is so. And if it’s so, you accept it. And, you know, I would not describe Barclay as a dangerous fellow at all. I think he’s been very useful, though. I think in his own beliefs about some issues, I think he was deficient. But aren’t we all? I appreciate your call, Maria. I hope that’s helpful to you. God bless you. Let’s see here. I don’t have time to take another call right now. We have another half hour coming, though, so don’t go away. All of you who are waiting on the phones, stay there, and I’ll come to your calls very soon. You’re listening to The Narrow Path. My name is Steve Gregg. If you’ve never heard us before, it might seem like kind of a strange program. We’re live. at least on most stations. There are stations that play us recorded later, but we are live every day, Monday through Friday, and been doing it for 28 years. Now, we don’t have any sponsors, and we don’t sell any products. We are simply, as we say, listener-supported. And so we pay radio stations, depending on the month, sometimes between $120,000 to $140,000 a month. And where do you get that when you don’t have any sponsors and you don’t have any products for sale? Well, you just ask God to provide. And generally, so far for 28 years, he’s done it. People like you who want to hear the program continue do support it. Now, you may not want to, and you’re welcome to benefit from everything we have, even if you don’t. But if you would like to help us stay on the air, you can write to us at The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, CA 92593. That address again is The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, CA 92593. Now, if you don’t want to send us anything but you would like to help us out, you can donate from the website. If you don’t want to donate, you should still go to the website because there’s hundreds, actually thousands of resources at our website that are free and they’re valuable. You might think that anything you get for free isn’t worth much. Well, don’t judge that until you check it out. It’s thenarrowpath.com. Again, the website is thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds. Don’t go away. We have another half hour coming.
SPEAKER 01 :
Small is the gate and narrow is the path that leads to life. Welcome to The Narrow Path with Steve Gregg. Steve has nothing to sell you but everything to give you. When today’s radio show is over, we invite you to study, learn, and enjoy by visiting thenarrowpath.com where you’ll find free topical audio teachings, blog articles, verse-by-verse teachings, and archives of all The Narrow Path radio shows. We thank you for supporting the listener-supported Narrow Path with Steve Gregg. Remember thenarrowpath.com.
SPEAKER 09 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for another half hour taking your calls. If you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith, the way to reach me is by dialing on your phone. 844-484-5737. And anybody who’s under 40 years old may not know what it means to dial something on a phone because phones haven’t had dials for a long time. So, obviously, I mean, enter the numbers. 844-484-5737. Our next caller is Lori from La Mesa, California. Lori, welcome.
SPEAKER 10 :
Hello. Hi. Hi. My question is, I often listen to Catholic radio, and they talk about saying prayers for people who have died. And I’m just wondering your opinion on that, and is it worth praying for anyone who’s passed on? I have lost members of my family. I don’t know if that’s a waste of my time. I sometimes say, I hope they’re with you, God, you know, that kind of thing. But I don’t know if I should just leave it go or what.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, all I can say is the Bible does not encourage us to pray for people who have died. And it does not tell us even that there’s hope for having prayers answered for people who died. So the Catholic idea about that. is that a certain number of people who die are not bad enough to go to hell and not good enough to go to heaven. So they go to a third option, which is called purgatory. Now, the Bible mentions nothing about this. There is no purgatory mentioned in Scripture, so there’s not really any biblical reason to believe in that doctrine. But they believe that the people in purgatory, again, they’re not in hell, and they won’t go to hell because when they died, they weren’t bad enough to go to hell in their opinion. But they weren’t good enough to go to heaven, so they have to be perfected. They need to be purged. That’s what purgatory speaks of, purgation, purging. And so they have to be improved through God’s dealings in this other place. And they believe that you can help speed up their purging and their tenure in purgatory by purging. praying for them by praying that God I don’t know praying that God will forgive their sins or something it’s hard to say the Bible doesn’t give any guidance about such a thing there’s nothing in the Bible that says there’s such and nothing in the Bible we never find in the Bible people praying for the dead except in the Catholic Bible of course they have a book in the Old Testament that we don’t have because it wasn’t written by an inspired writer called Second Maccabees and in that book there’s a story of a battle and at the end of the battle One of the guys says we need to pray for the slain who died in this battle. Well, it doesn’t really make it clear why they should be prayed for, but this man is advocating praying for the dead. Now, that book, first of all, is not an inspired book as far as we know. Secondly, even if it was an inspired book, what a man says in an inspired book is not always true. I’m not sure how a man on earth would know. that there is a situation beyond this life where people can be prayed out of. I mean, if he doesn’t have inspiration. And there’s no suggestion that he’s an inspired prophet. So he at least, you know, expresses his sympathies, his sentiments to pray for the dead. And I have to say, being a person who’s lost loved ones, that we sometimes do have that, you know, kind of desire to say, God, you know, take care of them, God bless them or whatever. I mean, sometimes when I hear stories of great martyrs or something like that, I’m so inspired to say, God bless them, you know. But I’m not doing so with the assurance that anything I’m saying is going to change anything for them. It’s just a sort of a spontaneous reaction. I think we often have just because of our human sentiments. It may be, but I don’t think it is the case that praying for the dead will change things for them. So that’s where Roman Catholics would be on a different page than I would about that.
SPEAKER 10 :
Okay. Well, that’s good to know. Thank you. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER 09 :
All right, Lori. Thank you. I appreciate your calling. Okay. Our next caller is Diane from Oxford, Massachusetts. Hi, Diane. Welcome.
SPEAKER 12 :
Hi. Hi. You were speaking earlier with a brother who had called you a few times pertaining to marrying someone or being with someone who was unsaved but he was saved. Yes. Isn’t it written in Scripture one time where the Lord had told one of his sons to marry a woman who was not saved, who didn’t know him, because he wanted her to know him?
SPEAKER 09 :
No. No, there’s a story of Hosea the prophet in the Old Testament. And he married, he was a Jewish man and he married a Jewish woman, so they were of the same faith. But she was a carnal person who was, either she had already been a prostitute before he married her, or she became one after he married her. Now, she simply, we read in Hosea that God spoke to Hosea and said, go and take to yourself a wife of harlotry. That is, a wife of harlotry. Well, his wife did end up leaving him for another man, it’s hard to know whether wife of harlotry means a wife who will become a harlot after you marry her, or a wife who’s already a harlot. It’s not entirely clear. So some commentators think she was already a harlot and God told her to marry him, told Jose to marry her. And others think he married a woman who was not yet compromised in that area, but that she became unfaithful. But that was, of course, not a Christian case. That was not a case of a Christian. That was a Jewish person in the Old Testament.
SPEAKER 12 :
Christians now who are in the Lord, men, I’m speaking on the man point of view right now, if you can explain this. If a Christian man, he’s supposed to be holy and be representing God, so he’s supposed to stay holy. But if a woman goes to him, to stay with him, then he is under obligation to watch over her in the Lord and represent God to her. Isn’t that correct?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I think every Christian is under obligation to represent God to everyone they’re with.
SPEAKER 12 :
If they happen to be married to a spouse who’s not a Christian… No, no, I’m speaking about a man representing God to a woman.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, you mean a husband and wife?
SPEAKER 12 :
It’s accountability… I’m saying for the man who called you earlier pertaining to taking a woman, if the woman chooses to be with the man, isn’t it written that the man representing Christ, who is saved and has Christ, representing Christ, he stays with the woman and loves her to represent Christ to her?
SPEAKER 09 :
Yes, yes, that’s what I’ve told him, yes, uh-huh. Of course, every Christian is to be faithful to their marriage vows, even if they’ve married a non-Christian. You don’t make vows and break them and stay innocent before God. And the Bible does say that a husband is to be like Christ to his wife, just like Christ is to the church. And the wife is supposed to be like the church is to Christ. But, of course, if you have an unsaved wife, she’s not going to be acting like the church to Christ. But the man still has to be like Christ, and I think that’s what you’re saying. And I agree, yeah. A Christian never loses their obligation to fulfill the things that God tells them to do, even if the person they’re with is neglecting theirs. And you can’t just end a marriage because your spouse isn’t being obedient to God. You still have to be obedient to God. Thank you for your call. Okay, let’s talk to Frank in Sacramento, California.
SPEAKER 08 :
Welcome. Hello, Steve. This is Frank. Hi. I just wanted to ask, is it okay to pray to saints? Like, I know if I lose my keys, I pray to St. Anthony, and then my mom used to give me prayer cards with all the saints and everything else, and Donna would like to know mostly if it’s okay to the Virgin Mary, to pray to the Virgin Mary.
SPEAKER 09 :
I would say yeah, but some people… Well, let me ask you, why wouldn’t you pray to God?
SPEAKER 08 :
That’s what I’m saying I do. Donna wanted me to ask this, but I’m doing the best I can here.
SPEAKER 09 :
I’m thinking if I have a choice, I can pray to God who knows everything and can do everything and who cares for me. and has invited me to make my request made known to him, if that’s an option. And the other option is I can pray to a human being who doesn’t know me, who doesn’t have all power and doesn’t have all knowledge, and has never invited me to pray to them. I’m just going to go with God. And I’m not sure what would motivate me to pray to anyone else. I mean, God’s enough.
SPEAKER 08 :
You see all those prayer cards that, you know, maybe your mom gives you and that kind of thing, like St. Anthony, St. Jude, and that kind of thing, too. And then that’s absolutely right.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, those are things that people print up. Religious cards, religious books, religious things, those exist in every religion. I mean, you can find religious books for Hinduism and Buddhism and Judaism and Islam and all forms of Christianity, Catholic, Protestant. You can’t count on anything because it’s printed on a card or something like that. You have to go by what the Bible says because that’s the Word of God. So if you go to what the Scripture says, The Bible says, and Jesus himself said, when you pray, say, our Father, which art in heaven. So I know your cards probably have that on there, too. But once you pray to the Father, you can’t go to any higher authority than that. I like that. Yeah, that makes sense.
SPEAKER 08 :
Good time.
SPEAKER 09 :
All right.
SPEAKER 06 :
Does the Bible say anything about not praying to the saints or to Mary or to anybody else?
SPEAKER 09 :
The Bible doesn’t say not to do so, as far as I know, only because I think Christians never had a theology in Bible times, and the Jews never did either. That told them that when people died, like Mary or the saints, that somehow they were still aware of us, still available to us, still listening to us, still able to do things for us. So since that was not part of their theology, there would have been no inclination for them to pray to anyone other than God. Now, it is very clear that God wanted people to worship only him, and prayer is a part of our worship. So, you know, it could be maybe taken under the general rubric that we should have no other gods but God, and we should worship no one else but God. Now, I realize that Roman Catholics say they don’t worship Mary and they don’t worship the saints. They just kind of ask them to pray to God for them. And I realize that, but it’s just something, it’s an unnecessary step. You know, I actually think that the reason Jesus came to us is to put us back in the closest relationship with God the Father that we had lost and that God wants with us. And for us to put any mediaries between ourselves and God and not talk to him personally himself is to, I think, to be really working against what Jesus came to do. It says, Paul told Timothy, there’s one God. and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ. But by saying Jesus is a mediator, we realize it means that he takes us to the Father so we can talk to the Father. Jesus is the mediator who commends us to God and commends God to us and brings us into company with God so that we can talk to him. Something we couldn’t do without you.
SPEAKER 06 :
Thank you very much.
SPEAKER 09 :
Thanks, Steve.
SPEAKER 06 :
My pleasure. God bless you.
SPEAKER 09 :
Thank you for calling. God bless. Bye now. Okay, another Massachusetts caller. David from Pepperell, Massachusetts, I think it is. Hello, David. Hi. Hi.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hi. Yeah, so I basically, I have a couple things. One was based on the last call, but I’m going to talk just the first, the reason I called, actually. Okay. Um, so in the Bible, you know, I’m a practicing Christian and, you know, I, I do my best to attend Bible study and try to, you know, learn everything I can about living my life as a Christian. But obviously one of the best ways to do that is to follow the way, you know, what Jesus did here and came here and, you know, lived his life as in the flesh. And, you know, to me that, He experienced all the things that I’m experiencing. So my question is, where he experienced what it was like to sin and resist temptation and he experienced loving others and showed us how to love and all that, he didn’t experience sinning with the result of sinning, which is shame and guilt. Right. So my question is, is where he… I guess I have a little trouble understanding the part where they say he bore our sins on the cross and kind of understanding what that meant. And, you know, did he experience guilt or shame or, you know, that’s basically what I have.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I don’t know if that is what is implied when it says he himself took our sins in his own body on the tree in 1 Peter chapter 2. Or even in Isaiah 53, verse 6, where it says, All we like sheep have gone astray, we’ve turned everyone to his own way, and the Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all. The Bible does indicate that our sins came on Jesus, and I think most evangelicals have understood that to mean that God, in a sense, took our guilt and in some way that only God can do, transferred it to Jesus so that he experienced our guilt and therefore our punishment for our sins, which was death on the cross. Now, this is implied, it seems to me, by the verses I just mentioned. though some people think those verses maybe could be interpreted a different way. I don’t know that entering into that discussion is essential, but I will say that Jesus, who experienced all things we do, and when it says that, of course, it means he was tempted. It says he was tempted in all points as we are. That’s the comparison that was made. So he experienced temptation like we did. It doesn’t say he experienced guilt like we did, but he might have. I mean, when Jesus said, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? When he was on the cross, very many Christians think that he said that because he was feeling the guilt of sin that was laid upon him. Not his own sins, but ours. And that he was being crushed by that guilt and he felt forsaken by God for it. And in that case, if that theory is true, and it’s the theory I hold, and I’ve been taught all my life, then I think we could say he did experience guilt. Ours, not his. Although, again, there are other realistic ways to understand some of these things. But it’s not essential to me to know that Jesus experienced the feelings of guilt. I mean, he’s worth following. He’s the king. He’s the Lord. I would follow him the same whether I thought he’d ever felt guilt like I have or not. The great thing about Jesus is that whether he felt our guilt or not, he came and made it possible for us not to feel guilt, not to be guilty. Now, guilt causes a lot of problems. If you go to certain kind of counselors and psychologists and therapists, they might try to help you get over your guilt feelings. If they do, it’s probably because they think guilt is not a real thing, but it’s just sort of something that’s put on us by our conditioning and things like that. But there is such a real thing as guilt. If you do something wrong, you really are guilty. You’re guilty of doing something wrong. But But feelings of guilt should only exist when there has been real guilt. Sometimes the devil wants us to feel guilty when we’ve done nothing wrong and we feel condemnation wrongfully. But when we do wrong, there’s nothing wrong with feeling like we did wrong. There’s nothing wrong with feeling shame and guilt. But Jesus came to let us know that that can be totally forgiven, totally alleviated, so that he takes the actual guilt away and with it all the occasion of guilt feelings. All people feel guilt unless they’re sociopaths. And… But not everyone has something they can do about that to be genuinely alleviated. And that’s what Jesus came to do, to take our sins upon himself. He takes our guilt away. It says in 1 John 1.9, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So once that’s happened, we don’t have to feel any guilt about it anymore. If we do continue to feel guilt about it, we should recognize that’s simply sin. Actually, the devil bringing condemnation on us about things that God is not holding against us anymore. Okay, let’s talk to Rick from Napa, California. Rick, welcome.
SPEAKER 02 :
Hi, Steve. I appreciate your ministry, and I learn a lot. Now, I have a question. I’m interacting with a lot of Calvinists lately, and I just consider them to be… you know, Christians who have some fairly serious misunderstanding. But some of the ideas that they have, I wonder if we should be a little more severe. The idea that God created most of humanity for hell with no possibility of salvation. The idea that, you know, in other words, reprobation. And then that means God doesn’t love all men. Now, aren’t both of those two, I mean, they’re getting pretty close to heresy. What’s your take on that?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I have to agree that what they’re holding in that respect should be regarded as heresy. It’s an atrocious doctrine and a false doctrine. The Bible says God is love, and if God is love, it can’t be that there’s someone he doesn’t love. Just like when the Bible says God is light, it can’t mean that there’s some people that he’s dark. or when it says God is spirit, but there’s some people he’s physical to. No, he is, in his essence, he is spirit. He is light. He is life. All those things are stated. And the Bible says God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. Now, Calvinist says, well, when it says he loved the world, it means not just the Jews but the Gentiles too, but only the elect of both groups. But that’s not really true because the same author, 1 John 2… Verse 1, he says, little children, I write these things so that you don’t sin, but if you do sin, if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and he’s the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but for the whole world. And so, you know, not just us, not just the elect, not just the Christians, but he died for the whole world. And so, why would he do that if he didn’t, Jesus said, greater love has no man than this, that he die. You know, lay down his life for his friends. So he was a friend of sinners. There’s no question about it. He was called a friend of sinners and he wore that as a badge. God is the best friend sinners have because he loves them and he died for them. And so to say that he doesn’t love them. To say that the majority of people who go to hell, God never loved them, never wanted them saved, is simply to say the opposite of what the Bible says about God and about his intentions and his desires. He’s not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repent. So if someone says, well, God’s just the kind of God, he chooses his friends and then he hates everybody else. And he’ll torture them all forever because he hates them. That’s not the God the Bible describes. Now, in saying that’s a horrible doctrine, I’m not saying that everyone who holds it is a horrible person or even not a Christian because Christians are wrong about God in many respects. Right. Even Job was a godly man, but he misunderstood God’s intentions. And at the end when God showed up, Job said, I have heard of you with the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you, and I loathe myself. I repent in dust and ashes. Now, he was a godly man before. He just had wrong views of God. And when he understood God better, he felt really bad about having had wrong thoughts. And I think some people come out of Calvinism and feel the same way. They realize that Calvinism, though they were Christians mistaken about it, it was a doctrine that was an insult to God. And many people have repented of that and come out of it.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, thanks. I just wanted to just check and see if you thought it was fair to call that teaching a heresy. I realize it would be counterproductive to go calling a Christian a heretic. But, yeah, that’s kind of how I feel about the doctrine. Okay, thanks. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER 09 :
All right, brother. God bless. Tim from Leavenworth, Kansas. Welcome.
SPEAKER 14 :
Hello. Yes. Good afternoon. Yes. Yes. I would like to ask you a question, Steve. There seems to be a double standard today in the church. I grew up in a Wesleyan-type background where they believed you could fall from grace, but I’m going to a Baptist church now. And they make statements like your past, present, and future sins are forgiven. And then they turn around and judge a minister like ministers have fallen and say, well, what they’re doing is wrong. If their sins are already forgiven, how can we judge people that sin, even those that don’t repent?
SPEAKER 09 :
I think your question illustrates a good point. We have a lot of talking points as Christians that aren’t saying what the Bible says. We say them because they make us feel good or because they agree with some doctrinal idea we’ve had. But they’re not what the Bible says. And then when we make up these talking points, then we act in situations that show we really don’t believe that. We simply make our talking points look stupid. Now, the idea that God has forgiven all of our sins past, present, and future is not a statement the Bible makes. And yet, Baptists, I was raised Baptist. We say that God has forgiven all your sins past, present, and future. I said things like that until I found the Bible doesn’t teach that. What the Bible does teach is that Jesus’ death atones and is adequate for all sins of all people, past, present, and future, but they’re not forgiven until we repent. I mean, so… I personally believe that every unbeliever, Christ died for their sins, but they’re not saved because they have to repent. They have to come to Christ. God has put the money in the bank, but they haven’t drawn on it. So he’s given, in a sense, eternal life and purchased it for everyone, and it’s like money in the bank, but you don’t get any benefit from it unless you draw upon it. And when you become a Christian, of course, you’ve drawn on it. But as a Christian, Christianity is walking with God. It’s living to please God. I mean, you trust in Christ, not just to get you to heaven, but to be your king and your lord and to be your guide. And you follow him. And when you do, sometimes you’ll stumble and you’ll repent. And all is good. I mean, maybe not all is good, because if you stumble, it might do some damage that doesn’t get fixed. But at least between you and God, you can be restored. But, yeah, this idea, when Jesus died, all your sins, past, present, and future, were forgiven. Well, if that’s true, then that’s true of all people on earth, because he died for all people on earth and all their sins. Yeah, he died for all sins. But no one receives remission of sins until they come to Christ or until they believe and repent of their sins. And that’s true before you’re a Christian. And there’s not a thing in the Bible that suggests that’s not true still after you’re a Christian. That’s why John said in 1 John, If we, we’re Christians, if we confess our sins, he’s faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Okay, so it is not the case that just because I’m a Christian, I never have to worry about sin anymore. I need to live a holy life. Without holiness, no man will see the Lord, the writer of Hebrews said. And if I fail, as we all do, I have to repent. And I can. I can do that. So I don’t ever have to worry that I won’t be saved. Even if I fall, because I don’t just live in sin. If I fall in sin, I’ll repent and I’m back okay with God again. So this idea that you just get saved one time and you’re once saved, always saved. It doesn’t matter what you do after that. Your sins are all covered. Well, that’s a total misunderstanding of any biblical teaching about the Christian gospel. And it’s a shame it is taught. You’re right. It is a strange thing. Hey, I’m out of time for the program, but thank you for calling, Tim. Good talking to you. You’ve been listening to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Craig. We are listener supported. If you’d like to write to us, you can write to the Narrow Path, PO Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. And you who are in eastern Tennessee, I’m speaking in Churchill tonight. I’m speaking in Talbot tonight. Sunday night, you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, and find the times and places of those things and join us if you’d like to. Have a good weekend, and I look forward to speaking to you again on Monday. God bless.
