::Daily Radio Program
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon. If you have questions about the Bible, about Christianity, feel free to give me a call. We can talk about those on the air. If you have a different viewpoint from the host and want to talk about that on the air, you’re welcome to do so. Give me a call. The number is 844-484-5737. That number again is 844-484-5737. 484-5737. There’s a couple of things happening this week in Southern California for listeners in the area. One is this Thursday night. This just was arranged today, so it’s brand new. It’s not even at the website yet, but this Thursday night at 630, I believe it is, we have a A men’s group going to be in Covina. This is a group I only visited once several months ago. They meet at a Starbucks outside. And it was kind of cold last time, but it won’t be cold this time, this Thursday. And shortly that announcement will be on our website. You can see where it is if you’re in Covina or want to join us. I was asked if I’d speak about agnosticism. and atheism, and I think I’m going to add to that anti-theism. So we’ll be talking about agnosticism, atheism, and anti-theism. And so if you’re a man, it’s a man’s group, and it’s this Thursday night in Covina at a Starbucks. I’ll give you more information as we get closer to the time, but just so you’ll know. Then this Saturday morning, we have our monthly men’s Bible study in Temecula, which many of you already know about and attend. If you don’t, if you haven’t in the past, come. Feel free to join us. Information about that is found at our website. Information about this Thursday will soon be found at our website, too. It’s at thenarrowpath.com under the tab that says announcements. Excuse me. All right, well, we’re going to go to the phones and talk to Tom in Gainesville, Florida. First of all, hi, Tom. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thank you.
SPEAKER 04 :
Would you try to give short answers, and I’ll try to ask five quick questions?
SPEAKER 02 :
I don’t know if that can happen. I can’t promise it. Five is a lot of questions for one call. Let’s see what we can do.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay. I know the Bible is inspired by God, and here’s a strange question. I don’t know exactly how I know… that the Bible is inspired by God?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, that’s a statement, not a question, but I think I understand what you’re saying. I grew up knowing that the Bible is inspired by God, too. I later, as I grew up, learned reasons for that belief, and I have incredibly good reasons for believing that now. But before I knew those reasons, I believed it. Now, one could say I believed it because my parents taught it to me, and that’s true. It’s also the case, though, that when I read the Bible, just subjectively, it was different than reading any other book. I mean, someone could say, well, that’s psychological. You were taught that it’s the Word of God, so you approached it with that in mind, and therefore it was different for you. Could be. Could be. I really don’t know. I’m not trying to make a case here for anything. I will say this, though. That reading the Bible is always, for me, even as a child, and I did have one by my bedside as a child. If I woke up from a nightmare, I’d read a few verses out of the Bible. I’d feel better. It didn’t really make sense. I mean, it’s almost like it was superstitious on my part, but it worked. And, you know, I received more peace just having read what I believed to be the Word of God. It didn’t even matter what it was that I had read, just, I mean, in it. It was more just a subjective sense. Now, I was a child then. And some people have that sense as a child, and they retain it into their adult life. But, of course, once we’re adults, we have reason to cross-examine things that we took as children just for granted because we were taught them. And I did that when I was in my early teens, early to late teens. And ever since, I’ve studied the evidences for the inspiration of Scripture. And, of course, I believe it’s the Word of God as much now as I did then. Although my understanding of what it means for it to be the Word of God might have, you know, matured a bit, nuanced a little bit. But I’m as confident in it now, perhaps more so, as I was when I was a child because now I have all kinds of reasons. Anyway, that’s my short answer to that. You can learn. If you don’t know why, you can learn. Listen to my lecture series called Authority of Scriptures, and that will help.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay, great. I was wondering, yesterday I think you were talking about apathy and going insane, and I was wondering, to not go insane, do I have to be apathetic about some suffering?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, probably in measure. I mean… If somebody you care about is in agony, let’s just say somebody you care about became a prisoner of war and you had reason to believe that they’re still over in Vietnam and that they’re being tortured and starved and emaciated and not allowed to die but just to be miserable. Every time you would think about that and the fact that you can’t do anything to change it would certainly make you want to tear your hair out, I think. Now, probably… probably the coping mechanism that anyone would have in such a situation would be to not think about it very often. Since thinking about it doesn’t help it, you can’t change it by thinking about it, and yet you don’t want to not think about it. It seems very unsympathetic, but you develop a sense of at least occasional apathy, if not a low-grade apathy at all times. I mean, if that person was before your eyes and you were watching these things happen to them every moment, I think you’d probably go crazy just knowing that you can’t do it. And you can’t not care. Unless, of course, you can bring yourself to not care. Now, we were talking about hell. You’re referring back to that call. And I was saying that if you believe that people are in eternal conscious torment, and that would include some loved ones of yours, maybe your grandparents, maybe your parents, maybe your children, maybe your siblings, maybe your best friend. you know, that they die and they’re tormented forever and ever, it would seemingly drive you mad to think of that seriously and to really believe it. And the fact that so many people say they do believe it and they aren’t driven mad, in fact, they can have days where they’re feeling quite good. They can be entertained. They can have a good time. It’s obvious that they’re putting it out of their mind or either they don’t believe it’s true. or they do believe it’s true and they’re blocking it out. But blocking it out is meaning that you’re choosing in some way to be apathetic about it for the moment. I mean, you can’t care as much as you naturally would about a situation like that and have no relief from it without, I would think, without cracking. Most people would. That’s what I was talking about.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay, that sounds… intelligent. Are you 100% sure or 99.9% sure that there’s a God?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I don’t have any reservations, so I guess I’d be 100%. Now, 99.9% is almost 100% sure. The truth is that one could say, well, we can’t be 100% sure about anything at all, even that we exist. Is that true? Well, I’m not sure that it’s true. I mean, There is not any, there’s no wedge, not even the small end of the wedge of doubt in my head about God, because I’ve, first of all, I’m an evidence-based person, and all the evidence in the universe that has been found, especially in the past century, has pointed more and more to the fact that there has to be a God, because there’s too many things scientists have recently discovered. like the incredible information content in the simplest living thing, which cannot code itself. It requires intelligence to do that. And tons of other things that have been discovered that make it essentially impossible, except for somebody who’s got a very blind faith, to believe that there’s no God. Anyone who knows these things and still says there’s no God is simply choosing to be blind because it simply isn’t possible for what we now know scientifically to be true if there’s no intelligent designer. And so, I mean, my evidence-based orientation makes me, forces me to believe there’s a God. Now, whether it’s the God of the Bible or some other kind of, intelligent being that’s not the God of the Bible. That’s another story, and that goes back to my belief in the Bible and my reasons for believing in the Bible. I have my reasons for that, just like I have my reasons for believing in God. And beyond that, of course, I’ve lived with God as a believer and a follower of Christ for over 60 years. And that being so, I’ve had all kinds of interaction with him, like I have with my own parents or with my own brothers and sisters. It’s not exactly the same because I can see them with my eyes. But if I couldn’t see them, let’s just say if my entire relationship with them was that of pen pals, if I’d never met my dad because he was taken from me, you know, when I was too little to remember, but we’d had a pen pal relationship where, you know, we correspond and he sends me things and he answers my questions and things like that, I would have, you know, I’d still know he existed. So anyway, my thoughts are I can’t think of even .01% of reason to not believe in God. So I’d say I’m pretty much 100% in there.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay. Has it ever happened that 50 years ago you were sure that God spoke to you about something, but 50 years later you’re not so sure?
SPEAKER 07 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, definitely. Okay. If the Bible wasn’t written 2,000 years ago, could it be written today?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, if Jesus lived today, if the authors who walked with him and were eyewitnesses lived today, they could write it today. Now, there’s nothing magic about 2,000 years ago that would have made it impossible for God to do the same thing at some other time. Although the Bible does say that when Jesus came, it says in Galatians 4, 4, he came at the fullness of times, which means… God thought it was the very best of times. So God had reasons, perhaps, that we can’t imagine. But I can’t imagine why, if he had wished, he couldn’t have done the same thing in modern times. But he must have had very good reasons not to. All right?
SPEAKER 04 :
You know, when I listen to you, you kind of increase my faith. And I get confidence. I can tell you’re very intelligent. But sometimes I listen to an atheist called Richard Dawkins, and he kind of makes me doubt a little bit.
SPEAKER 02 :
Do you have that same feeling like when you… He’s a mocker. I mean, one thing about Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris and the new atheists out there is… Yeah, but they’re intelligent in a way, right? In their own field. I mean, Dawkins knows more about biology than… than probably very many people in the world do. He may be one of the world’s greatest experts in biology. I don’t know if he is, but he’s certainly up there. But knowing everything in the world there is to know about biology wouldn’t put you any closer to being an expert on whether God exists, because God is not biological. Biologists study biology. Now, if they conclude from what they study that there’s no God, they’ve moved away from their field of expertise into the realm of philosophy. But Dawkins is not a great philosopher. I’m not saying he’s stupid. He’s not stupid, but he doesn’t shine when it comes to philosophy. He shines when it comes to biology because that’s his field. You know, we have to remember that every scholar, every expert out there who’s maybe the best expert in their field in the world is still a layman in all the other fields. A man can only become expert… in a very narrow lane of what’s known to humanity. And the greatest ones are the ones who know the best about their field. But the greatest expert in biology is still a layman when it comes to philosophy. I’m not saying he can’t dabble in philosophy. He might even be good at it. But he’s a layman. In other words, he’s not an expert. So Dawkins… The reason that Dawkins and Hitchens and those guys are called the new atheists is not because they came up with some new reasons. They didn’t come up with some new reasons for being atheists. People, there’s been atheists forever. And they usually all have the same reasons for being atheists. And Dawkins has the same reasons they had 500 years ago or 1,000 years ago for being atheists, if there were some. But, you know, they just, the thing about the new atheists is they simply resort to mockery. They try to shame believers. So, I mean, other atheists in the past didn’t try to shame believers. They just made a case for their views. And in most cases, they made better arguments than Dawkins makes. I’ve read his God Delusion. I’ve read, you know, The Blind Watchmaker. I’ve read most of his book on the evidence for evolution called The Greatest Show on Earth. I’ve listened to him. And he’s just not excellent in his philosophical musings. As soon as he gets off talking about biology and talks about God, he’s left his field, and he’s now in the field that any of us are in as philosophers. He’s getting into philosophy. To say that such and such a thing is observed in the laboratory or certain behaviors of animals are observed in nature is scientific. That’s based on observation. To say there’s God or there’s not a God, is not an observed science. It’s not scientific observation. It’s a conclusion that one reaches based on philosophical considerations. In many cases, the new atheists, you know, they’re very smart about things, but the philosophical assumption they make to conclude there’s no God is usually that People who think they know God are usually stupid or unimpressive. That’s one of his reasons. He obviously uses those. And the other is that he doesn’t, and he usually thinks the God of the Bible couldn’t exist because of the suffering and injustice in the world. And if there was a good God, there wouldn’t be that. they don’t realize that the Bible has more to say about suffering and injustice and acknowledging its reality than almost any book written in the ancient times. But, you know, that’s a philosophical statement. The philosophical statement is a good God would have no good reason for allowing suffering and injustice in the world. And I’m coming from the other side as an amateur philosopher. It’s a good God. might indeed have a good reason for allowing suffering and injustice, which I don’t know about because I don’t know as many things as he does, that is, as God does. So anyway, it’s a poor philosopher who has to say God could not do such and such when he doesn’t even believe there is a God. Perhaps the God he doesn’t believe in could do those things and might have very good reasons for it. Hey, we’ve talked a long time, but I just want to recommend to you a couple of things. A man named Anthony Flew died a few years ago. He was, for about 50 years, Britain’s leading atheist philosopher. And he debated Christians. He wrote book after book on atheism. And before he died, he became a believer in God, not in Christ. He didn’t become a Christian. He became a deist. But he was looking at the scientific evidence of the last 50 years that had been discovered. He said there’s no way to be an atheist anymore. And he said there has to have been intelligent design. So he adopted the idea that there is a God, but he didn’t adopt any religion. And he wrote a book called There Is a God after writing many books saying there wasn’t. And he’s a brilliant man. His book is called There Is a God. His name is Anthony Flew. It’s quite a persuasive book, but it’s mostly persuasive because of the guy who wrote it and the fact that he alienated all his fans of the previous 50 years by coming out and saying, hey, I’ve got to tell the truth. There is a God out there. You can’t explain anything that we look at now without believing that. I also want to say that I didn’t see the movie. I hope I will. It may still be in theaters. There’s a movie out there called The Story of Everything. It talks about intelligent design, but if anyone has any serious doubts about God, I’d recommend that movie, though I haven’t seen it. The reason I say that, even though I haven’t seen it, is I know I’m familiar with the guys in it, Stephen Meyer and others that are in the movie. are brilliant scientists, and I’ve seen their work, and so I’m eager to see their movie. I haven’t seen it yet. It’s been in theaters. I don’t know if it’s passed out of town now. But anyway, it’s called The Story of Everything. It’s a movie. It’ll probably be on Amazon before long, I hope. All right, thanks for your call. I really need to give some time to someone else.
SPEAKER 10 :
I owe you a favor, more than one.
SPEAKER 02 :
Pardon?
SPEAKER 10 :
I owe you a favor, more than one.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, no, you don’t. Thank you very much. Okay, let’s see. Tony in Greenville, South Carolina. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hi, Steve. Hey, my question is going to be on dispensationalism. I just need to know a lot more about in detail what it really is as either a Christian or a Jew. So let’s just say that I discovered I’m 3% Jewish with one of those DNA kits, which is fantastic news, right? Apparently it means I’ve stumbled into this. prophetic VIP lounge by accident. So now I’m wondering if I’m a Jew, do I even need faith, repentance, discipleship, or any of that difficult carrier cross kind of stuff, right? Maybe that tiny percentage of Jewishness unlocks the covenant rewards automatically because I fly away or I stay. One of the two, what is it and what does dispensationalism really mean to the Jew?
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. Yeah, my DNA came back showing I’m less than 1% Jewish. So you’re way ahead of me in the chosen people area. You’re 3%. Yeah, that’s an interesting thing. When people say that God has a plan for Jewish people, I always want to know how much Jew makes you a Jewish people. 50 percent, 25 percent, 10 percent, 3 percent, 1 percent. You know, how much Jewish do you have to have in your lineage to be called a Jew? Now, of course, people say, well, you had to have a Jewish mother, but that’s the modern way that the Israelites, people of Israel have decided if you’re Jewish or not. What does God think to me? And there’s no answer to that, and it doesn’t matter because God doesn’t have any special policies for the Jews than those that he has for everybody else. He used to. He had a special covenant with Israel as a nation to be his holy people, but it was conditional. He said they had to keep his covenant, obey his voice, and if they didn’t, he’d basically disown them. He’d divorce them. He’d go after another people, he said, in Deuteronomy. And that’s what happened. They did break his covenant. They especially did so when the Messiah came and called them to himself, and only a small remnant of the Jews came to him, and still do, by the way. There’s a small remnant of the Jewish people who still come to Christ. The rest of the Jewish people, just like the majority of Gentiles, they did not believe in Christ, and therefore they don’t have a relationship with God or a covenant with God. You can’t have a covenant with God outside of Christ. But the dispensational view agrees with that, except they say, well, there’s still this kind of latent covenant that God has with Israel. Now, there’s nothing in the Bible about a latent covenant. And they don’t use that term, but they’re really talking about that. They’re saying God still has a covenant with these people, even though they’re going to hell if they die without Christ. And because he has this kind of subterranean covenant that no one can see, and they don’t love him, and they curse him, and they’re atheists, and they’re anti-Christian. Yeah, but there’s still this covenant thing that no one can see that’s going on that’s going to guarantee that they’re going to come back to him. Now, you said, can you go to heaven just by being Jewish? No, dispensationalism doesn’t teach that. Dispensationalism teaches that Jews who die without Christ are just as lost as Gentiles who die without Christ, but… They believe that because people are Jewish, if they are at least living in the last generation of Jewish people, that there is a prediction that they will turn to Christ and they’ll be saved that way. Now, it’s really hard to know, if God loves all Jewish people, why he would only guarantee this for the last generation of Jews and all the Jews who have lived and died since then or before then, though they were just as Jewish as the ones living today, they weren’t chosen in the same sense and they weren’t made to become Christians. The Bible doesn’t teach what dispensationalists teach, but they do believe that the Jews need Jesus, which is true, and they do believe that Jews who die without Christ are lost, which is true. true, of Jews and Gentiles. And yet they believe that there will be a generation at the end of Jews who will all turn to Christ. And this is something the Bible doesn’t mention anywhere. There are verses they use, but they are verses that apply to a different time frame than the end times. And this is what dispensationalists miss so often, is they think something’s talking about the end times, and yet they don’t realize that the thing that they’re looking at in the Bible was fulfilled centuries ago, And there’s no suggestion that it’s going to happen in the end time. So that’s where I differ from dispensationalism. But, no, the dispensationalists would not say that if you have 3% Jewish in you, or even 100% Jewish in you, that that will save you. However, if you happen to be lucky enough to be living in the last generation of Jews… it will kind of save you because you’ll be one of those people that God has guaranteed will turn to Christ. Now, a Jew can turn to Christ anytime he wants to. Anybody can turn to Christ if they choose to, and that’s been true the past 2,000 years. But for some reason, dispensationalists believe that God’s going to make a whole generation of Jews turn to Christ at the end, which if God’s able to do that, I don’t know why he didn’t do it with all the Jews all the generations before, unless he doesn’t love them as much. According to In dispensationalism, God loves all the Jews because of his promise to their fathers, and that’s why he’s going to save the last generation of them. But the earlier generations of Jews had the same ancestors, and therefore if God loves anyone because of their ancestors, he should have loved all the Jews throughout history, and yet he let them die lost, even though dispensationalists apparently believe that God has the power to flip the switch and turn all the Jews to himself, to Christ, so that they could be saved. Now, there is something called dual covenant theology. It’s not held by most dispensationalists. I think John Hagee is the one who’s usually associated with this, though others apparently hold it. It’s kind of an aberration of dispensationalism, and that is that Gentiles need to be saved through Christ, but Jews don’t. Jews don’t have to come to Christ. Jews, if they just keep the old covenant, can be saved. Now, Paul apparently didn’t get that memo, nor did Jesus. The Pharisees were about as meticulous at keeping the Old Covenant as anybody who ever lived, and Jesus said they’re going to hell. So I don’t know where Hagee gets the idea that Jews, if they just keep the Old Covenant, they’ll be saved, especially since the New Testament says that the new covenant having come, the Old Covenant is obsolete, Hebrews 8.13. So the Old Covenant is obsolete. I don’t know how it could be saved by keeping an obsolete covenant. a covenant that God doesn’t honor anymore. No, everybody needs Jesus, and that’s true whether they’re Jewish or Gentile. So I hope that somewhat clarifies your conundrum there. I appreciate your call. We need to take a break, and we will be back in about 30 seconds. The Narrow Path is listener-supported. If you’d like to write to us, the address is TheNarrowPath, PO Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. The website is thenarrowpath.com. Everything there is free, though you can donate from there if you want to. That’s thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds. Don’t go away.
SPEAKER 01 :
toward a radically Christian counterculture, as well as hundreds of other stimulating lectures, can be downloaded in MP3 format without charge from the Narrow Path website, www.thenarrowpath.com. There is no charge for anything at the Narrow Path website. Visit us and be amazed at all you’ve been missing. That web address, www.thenarrowpath.com.
SPEAKER 02 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for another half hour. It is an hour altogether, but we have half of it behind us and half of it ahead of us. You can call in if you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith or if you disagree with the host. That phone number to use is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. 484-5737. Now, I’m going to announce this again. I did a half hour ago at the beginning of the program, but this was just arranged today. And it’s coming up real soon, so there’s short notice. I want to make sure information gets out there. There’s a men’s meeting on Thursday night in Covina, California. And I spoke there once before several months ago, and they want me to come again this Thursday, so I will. I’m going to be speaking on the subject of agnosticism, atheism, and anti-theism, three different philosophies very similar to each other. And so that’s going to be this Thursday night at 630, from 630 to 8, and it’s in a Starbucks at Covina. The address is 611 South Citrus Avenue. 611 South Citrus, Starbucks in Covina. Okay, and we’re going to go to the phones now. Let’s see who’s been waiting longest. It looks like it has been Grant in Orlando, Florida. Welcome to the Narrow Path, Grant.
SPEAKER 05 :
I’ve been having a question for quite a while now. I try to get on Michael Roddell next program and a few other guys, but I keep going too late.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 05 :
And so this question is basically about the elect. I’ve been hearing a lot of Calvinists calling the elect the saved. They kind of equate the two. And so my question is, and I’m just curious if you know which verse this is. I’ve been trying to find it. The verse that says, I think it was Paul. It says, for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus. So if some of the elect haven’t achieved salvation, then obviously the elect isn’t just the saved. And I think there’s another verse where it talks about the elect being those who are called according to his purposes. It basically equates those. So I’m thinking more along the lines of the elect being those whom God calls to do certain things, like Jesus’ mother Mary or certain people who he calls, but they’re not necessarily saved by the calling. They’re just called to do a certain thing. Does that make sense to you?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, there is a vocational choosing. I mean, when God said to Jeremiah in Jeremiah 1.5 that he says, I knew you in your mother’s womb and I chose you or called you to be a prophet, That would be a choosing to a vocation, that is, to being a prophet. It’s not quite the same thing that’s being talked about when it talks about being the elect. In the New Testament, the elect is a plural corporate category that refers to all those who are in Christ. He is the elect. In the Old Testament, Isaiah referred to the Messiah as God’s elect one, the servant of Yahweh whom I’ve chosen. The word choose and elect are the same in the Greek and the Hebrew. It’s just different English words for the same idea. So, you know, those who are saved are the ones who are in Christ. Christ is elect, so those who are in him are elect in him, just like he is righteous and those who are in him are righteous in him. just as he died and rose again and we died and rose again in him. That is, being in Christ means that what he has accomplished and obtained for humanity is enjoyed as a reality to those who are in him. Now, that includes being elect. He’s elect. God chose him. Now, here’s the thing. Chose for what? You know, when Calvinists talk about God chose certain people, I think what they mean is they chose certain people to be saved as opposed to go to hell. Now, I’m not really sure the Bible uses the term elect that way. It certainly doesn’t use the word predestinate that way when the term predestination is used, which Calvinists actually kind of equate election and predestination. But whenever predestination is mentioned, it seems like it’s talking about You know, people are elect, are they predestined to be like Christ? And, of course, as you read the New Testament, it’s clear that God has chosen us to glorify him in the world, to spread the light to the darkness, to be salt to the earth and things like that. So, I mean, this is a vocational thing that we’re all chosen to. And Christ is the chosen one who is chosen to be the light of the world. And, of course, in him, Jesus said to his disciples, you are the light of the world. So it’s very clear that we are chosen because we’re in him to be what he is to the world. In fact, it actually says in 1 John, for even so are we in this world. So there’s a, you know, that’s being elect means. Now, it doesn’t mean that God saw a whole bunch of people going to hell. and elected or chose to save this one and that one and the other one. He just decided, I want to save some, but not all. I don’t want everyone to be saved. That would be going too far. I just want some of them, so I’ll just choose this one, that one, that one, that one. I’ll just forget about those ones there. I won’t choose them. That’s how Calvinism – I realize I said it in a flippant way, but there’s no significant difference between that and what the Calvinist view is. But it’s not that God – has chosen certain people to be saved and some to be lost. It’s that he has chosen Christ to be the light of the world, to be the Savior of the world, to be the one who brings the world back to God. And in him, we are chosen for that same mission. So that choosing, you could say, is vocational in a sense. Although he does choose certain people to be apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some teachers and so forth, as the Bible says. But all Christians in Christ collectively are the chosen one. We’re the body of Christ. And it’s through that body that Christ is. is going to do his work in the earth and has been doing it for the last 2,000 years. So that’s what I understand elect to refer to, chosen for something, not just chosen for privilege, chosen for responsibility and for, you know, a job that he has for us to do. Thank you for your call. All right, we’re going to talk next to, oh, let’s see here. Carol in Colorado, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 09 :
Hi, thank you. I have a couple of questions, and they’re kind of short. The first one being, I know several, they are now women, they used to be younger and I’m close to them, that are preference women in a relationship. Now, I do know that most of these women are saved as a young child they were, And I want to know how Jesus feels about that. If you’re a Christian and you’re saved and they believe, they go to church, but they’re gay, and I know the Bible says man shall not lay with man, and that should also apply to women, right? So how does he feel about that if you’re a child of him?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, God doesn’t have one set of moral standards for men and another for women. It is true that on the occasions, and there’s not very many, but there’s enough to let us know what God thinks. On the occasions where the Bible speaks of homosexuality, it does give examples of men, primarily. Romans chapter 1 mentions women giving up the natural use for that which is not natural. And that seemingly refers to lesbian behavior, but in the law… And in Paul’s writings and so forth, generally when homosexuality is described, the focus is more on the men. Right. But, yeah, if it’s wrong for men, it’s wrong for women, too. But the reason it’s wrong for men or women is not because it’s itself singled out to be, you know, attacked in the Bible. It’s that God made sexuality for a purpose.
SPEAKER 09 :
Right, to produce.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, it’s not a mystery. It’s for marriage. It’s for marriage and family and reproduction and that kind of thing. God made Adam and Eve for that purpose so they could procreate and start a society and things like that. So, I mean, that’s what sex is. Now, it’s a very important thing for humans to procreate and to perpetuate the human race. So God made it. a very strong urge. Frankly, animals have the urge to procreate, too. They don’t have any moral good or evil in them. But that procreation is so important, God made the means of it a very… desirable thing for which people have cravings and so forth, just like animals do. Now, there’s nothing animalistic about humans craving sex except to say, unlike animals, humans are supposed to do it within a certain context. There’s no restrictions on animals that God put on them, but God didn’t intend for animals to raise humans, and human children have to be raised by human parents, preferably two, who are committed to each other for life. So God made marriage, and sex is to be practiced there. Outside of marriage, it is forbidden. And that’s not just against homosexuality. That’s against adultery. That’s against prostitution. That’s against bestiality. That’s against, you know… any kind of sex outside of marriage, including homosexual sex. So it’s wrong. All that falls under a rubric that the Bible calls porneia in the Greek. In English, it’s usually translated sexual immorality or fornication. Now, what does God think about Christians fornicating? Now, I realize that you’re asking specifically, apparently, about gay women. but realize that there doesn’t need to be any special law for gays. There’s an overriding law about fornication. And gay sex is fornication. So is, you know, so is adultery. Right. Any sex that’s outside of legitimate marriage is fornication or porneia. So you don’t have to have a special category for homosexuals. It’s just there’s one category where sex is approved, and that’s in biblical marriage. And biblical marriage, according to Jesus, is a man and a woman. In Matthew 19, verses 1 through 9, Jesus, of course, made it very clear that marriage is when a man leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife. And the two become one flesh, and they don’t part. Right. What about a Christian who does fornicate, whether it’s straight or gay? Well, here’s what Paul said, and he said it twice, by the way. He said it once in 1 Corinthians, where he says in 1 Corinthians 6-9, Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. I think people are often deceived, so he warns us, no excuse for being deceived. He says, don’t be deceived, neither fornicators… nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. Now, in other words, these people won’t inherit the kingdom of God, people who are living in these sins.
SPEAKER 09 :
Even if they were saved first?
SPEAKER 02 :
If they were saved, they’d stop doing it. In fact, the next verse tells us that in verse 11. He says, and such were some of you. He’s writing to Christians. He says, you guys used to do these things. Such were some of you, but you were washed. You were sanctified. You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and the Spirit of our God. So he’s saying, you guys used to be this way. You’re not now because you’re saved now. But people who are still that way are not saved. They’re not going to inherit the kingdom of God. Now, that’s not the only time Paul says it. Well, if they get saved.
SPEAKER 09 :
They were saved when they were kids.
SPEAKER 02 :
And then turned. Well, maybe they were, maybe they weren’t. We don’t know that. I mean, remember Jesus said, many will say to me that day, Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name. We cast out demons in your name. We did mighty wonders in your name. He says, I never knew you. Depart from me. He said, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will inherit the kingdom of God. But those who do the will of my father in heaven. So it’s not just saying you became a Christian. It’s being a Christian. You know, anyone can say, I mean, I could say if I were a private in the military, I could say I’m a general now. I’ve just decided to be a general. Yeah, but I’m not one, and saying so isn’t going to convince anybody. They can tell I don’t have the stripes on my sleeve. I don’t have the rank of a general. It’s just my imagination. I mean, a person can say, I’m a Christian. Well, are they? What’s a Christian? A Christian is someone who follows Jesus. Jesus said it’s someone who does the will of his Father. That means habitually. I mean, everybody does the will of God once in a while, even atheists. But no, he’s talking about somebody who has their life has turned from doing their own will to doing God’s will as a habit. That’s their determination, to follow God instead of sin. So that’s what makes a person a Christian. Now, by the way, the same thing we read in 1 Corinthians, just so we know it’s not just an oddity. He said the same thing in Galatians 5. Verse 19, he says, the works of the flesh are evident, which are adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like, of which I told you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Okay, so the question is not, well, if they’re doing this, but they got saved, will they go to heaven because they got saved? Well, the question is, are they practicing those things? Paul said those who practice those things will not inherit the kingdom of God. So practice is what you do, not what you claim you are.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, see, now I’m confused because I heard from another minister on the radio that Jesus died for all of our sins. When you take him into your heart and you trust in him and believe in him of all the things that he did, your sins are forgiven.
SPEAKER 02 :
See, that’s one of the things that makes listening to Christian radio confusing because people say things that aren’t true and people say things that are true. And unless you read the Bible yourself, you won’t know which one is telling the truth and which isn’t. What that minister said, and I don’t know who it is you’re talking about, but what that minister said is what I was raised believing, because that’s American evangelicalism. Now, Jesus didn’t establish a religion called American evangelicalism. He established the Christian church and the kingdom of God. And he’s the one who laid out what the rules are, what the truths are. And being a Christian means you’re part of the body of Christ. And being part of the body of Christ means you obey the head, just like the members of your physical body obey your head. That’s what makes someone part of the body of Christ. Now, if somebody says, I’m a Christian, but they don’t even know what that means, apparently, because if they continue living in sin and they don’t think they have to stop, they’re not a Christian. They’re not what the Bible calls a Christian. And they’re not what God calls a Christian. So, you know, it might seem mean to tell them that, but I think it’s a lot nicer to tell them that now than to have God tell them that on the day of judgment when it’s too late. The truth is, Jesus said there’s a lot of people who think they’re Christians, but he’s going to say, I never knew you. So as scary as that might sound, it certainly is a merciful thing to tell somebody if they happen to be in that category before they get there so they can change. If someone says, well, once you accept Jesus, it doesn’t matter. You can go be a Satanist the rest of your life and live as a drug dealer and a prostitute and it doesn’t matter. You can go to heaven anyway because you believed in Jesus. No, you didn’t. You don’t believe in Jesus if you’re doing those things. Believing in Jesus, what’s that mean to believe in Jesus? It means that you believe he’s the king. He’s the Lord. He’s who God said he is. He’s not who you want him to be. Some kind of a Santa Claus, who hands out salvation to little kitties, no matter how they are, he’s who he is. You read the New Testament, you’ll find out who he is. And you’ll find out that the American evangelicalism, as some people teach it, is frankly a religion that was made up in the last few hundred years. It just doesn’t exist in the Bible, and it really wasn’t taught throughout church history. Unfortunately, we’re very provincial Christians. Very few people read history, apparently. Very few people read the Bible and use that as the basis for their beliefs as a Christian. Very few people know very much about the history of theological viewpoints. But those things are not inaccessible. Anyone can read those things. Most people just live in a little echo chamber of very modern religious ideas, very popularly taught in the biggest of churches, And by the most popular teachers, and this is why they’re popular, because they tell you, you don’t have to worry about it. Just say a prayer and then do whatever you want to do. You’ll be fine. Jesus already covered all the future stuff you’re going to do. Well, that’s not what the Bible teaches.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, that’s what they’re saying.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, where does it say that in the Bible?
SPEAKER 09 :
No, no, no. I mean, that’s what these people on this nation are saying.
SPEAKER 02 :
I realize that. Yeah, that’s what they’re saying.
SPEAKER 09 :
Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
But where does the Bible say it? Yeah, the Bible doesn’t say it. The Bible says the opposite. It’s that he’s writing to Christians in Galatia. He’s writing to Christians in Corinth. And he says, those who do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God. So I’m just going to believe what Paul said and what Jesus said, because Jesus said those who say, Lord, Lord, aren’t the ones who are saved, but those who do the will of the father. OK, that’s you know, it’s easy to become one of those people. You’ll have to make a decision to die to yourself, to take up your cross and follow Jesus. But Jesus said no one comes to him without doing that. If somebody thinks they came to him and didn’t do that, then someone didn’t preach the gospel very faithfully to them. Someone gave them, you know, some astroturf for them to eat as sheep, you know. They’re eating junk. Yeah, no, no, there’s only one Christianity in the Bible, and that is Jesus is Lord. He died to save those who are his disciples. And his disciples are called Christians. And his disciples are those who die to themselves. They deny themselves. They take up the cross. They follow him. They say no to sin. They’ve repented of that. If someone says, no, you just have to believe something. Well, the devil does that. The devil believes everything about Jesus that you believe. He’s not saving them. Believing those things doesn’t make you saved. It’s surrendering to God. It’s giving up your war against God. People are at war against God because they want to do what they want to do, and they don’t want to do what he wants them to do. And, you know, you only become a Christian when you lay down your arms and surrender and say, I’m not going to make war against God. Can you imagine people going to heaven who are at war with God? What business do they have? Right.
SPEAKER 07 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 09 :
So when you said you still should repent even though you don’t mean to do what you do, and he’ll forgive you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, true repentance. Yeah, it is true repentance. Now, see, here’s the thing.
SPEAKER 09 :
Right, right.
SPEAKER 02 :
If someone says, well, I’m just going to go out and sin every other day, and then I’m going to repent every other day, and then I’ll be forgiven. No, you don’t. That’s not repentance. No, no. You don’t plan to repent. You don’t plan to say, I’m going to go do this, this, and this, and then I’m going to repent. No, repentance is something that happens when you love God, you hate sin, and you find that through your own weakness and stupidity you have sinned, and you wish you hadn’t, and you want to never do it again. That’s repentance. So, yeah, I mean, I’m sorry, your friends are victims of American evangelicalism and not of reading what Jesus and the apostles said.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, you kind of answered my second question because somebody told me that, you know, I’m a pretty good Christian. I’m not perfect, but I do the best I can. But they told me, you know, you can fall from grace and you can actually lose your salvation. Well, you kind of answered that in the ways that you can.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes. I mean, Paul told the Galatians that they had fallen from grace. He actually used that phrase. Here’s what he said in Galatians 5.4. He says to them, you have become estranged from Christ. You who attempt to be justified by law, you have fallen from grace. So, yeah, Paul said there are people who have fallen from grace. Anyway, sister, I hope that helps you. I don’t have much time, and I have a lot of people waiting, but I probably maybe can only get one more in here in the time we have. I’m sorry to say. Let’s see. It’s going to – who’s been longest here? Let’s see. It’s going to be Mary in Chescom, Minnesota. Mary, welcome.
SPEAKER 08 :
Hi. I just wanted to add to your comments about the story of everything. It is excellent. There are many PhDs, highly intelligent experience – It’s amazing to see it.
SPEAKER 02 :
Good. I want to see it. Okay. Thank you, Mary. God bless. Bye now. Let’s talk to Aaron in Paxton, Illinois next. Aaron, didn’t think we’d get you in, but we did.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hey, Steve. I was just calling in because I had a quick question, and I wanted to thank you for helping me out with my last issue, what I called about my marriage and just all the prayer and everything. But I guess my question today is, would be over that passage in Revelation about be wary of those who say they are Jews and are not. I guess what I had been looking at was that passage in Romans 2.28, a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly. Right. Yeah. I was just wondering, is that in Revelation? I know you kind of have a preterist interpretation, but are they saying that be mindful of people who say they’re Christians that are not, essentially?
SPEAKER 02 :
No, no. He’s writing to actual Christians in Smyrna and in Philadelphia. And in chapter 2 of Revelation, verse 10, he says to the people of Smyrna, Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. I should have read the verse before that, excuse me, verse 9. I know your works, the tribulation and poverty, but you are rich, and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Now, he’s talking about the Jews who were persecuting the Christians. And Jesus says, because Jesus is saying this, they’re not real Jews. They call themselves Jews. I mean, that’s their racial designation. But they’re really the followers of Satan. Now, this is very much like what Jesus said in John 8. By the way, John wrote Revelation and the Gospel of John. So both come from the mouth of Jesus and the same author recording it. John 8, 44, Jesus said the Jews that were persecuting him and hated him were of their father, the devil. He said, I know that you were descendants of Abraham, but if you were the children of Abraham, you would do what Abraham did. And so, in other words, you’re not real children of Abraham. You’re not real Jews. You’re really of your father, the devil. And that’s the same contrast that Jesus, the same speaker, is making in Revelation 2 and Revelation 3, where he talks to the church of Philadelphia in chapter 3, verse 9. He says, Indeed, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie. Indeed, I’ll make them come and worship before your feet. Both of these churches, and only these two out of the seven, apparently were being persecuted by the local synagogue, which is not unheard of. I mean, look at the Book of Acts. Everywhere Paul went, the synagogue persecuted him. They’d stir up people to stone him to death, or they’d run him out of city, or they’d put him in jail. The synagogues, the Jewish synagogues, were very anti-the gospel. And these two churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia, apparently, were persecuted by the synagogue. In fact, Smyrna of the seven towns… that the seven lives were written to, had the largest Jewish population of any of them. And apparently they were giving the Christians trouble. And Jesus says, yeah, I know they call themselves Jews, but I don’t see them as that. And like you pointed out, Romans 2, 28 says, he is not a Jew who’s one outwardly, but he’s a Jew who’s one inwardly. So he’s saying, you know, you can use the word Jew as an ethnic designation, but the way that God recognizes a person to be Jew, is by their inward designation. Are they a Jew inwardly? These ones who were persecuted in the church were not. That’s why he says they say they’re Jews, but I don’t recognize them as that. They’re not. They’re just the synagogue of Satan. That’s what I take from there. I’m sorry I’m out of time. You’ve been listening to The Narrow Path. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us.
